The US economic slow down/recession is impacting most companies, especially in our automotive/motorcycle industry. Sales of S&S Cycle high performance engines and parts being sharply down due to the shrinking of motorcyclists disposable income, S&S Cycle President Brett Smith has decided to cut 60 employees out of a total of 255 workers employed in its 2 facilities of Viola & La Crosse, Wisconsin. As you know, the company just celebrated in June its 50th Anniversary. The cutbacks will be done through layoffs and voluntary separation. The company acknowledges that S&S cycle makes products and components that people don’t need to have, and consequently must reduce its work force to 195 employees to adjust to the new economic realities. S&S Cycle (picture President Brett Smith)
The excitment of the 50th anniversary did’t last a long time. Sad. But I am certain it’s the right decision to be ready when the economy recovers.
Is it possible that the cost of the 50th anniversary accelerated problems already present?
Maybe it was not such a good idea to have a big celebration for the 50th. Problems didn’t appear during the last 2 months. So, partying while dealing with a slow down is going to be perceived as a management mistake.
30% workforce cut. Seems to me quite the norm in this economic environment. S&S is good company. I think they will survive and just take the appropriate decisions to go through this very bad time.
ya mean, Howard is outta of a job again?
Greg, with respect, I think you are quite wrong about the 50th Anniversary Celebration being a ‘management mistake’. I was fortunate enough to attend and builders came from all parts of the world to participate and celebrate with S&S. Thousands of bikers got to tour the S&S facility and be impressed by the quality of production and R&D. They will help spread the word about what a great product S&S produce and a reputation for quality becomes even more important when times are tough and therefore people consider more carefully as to how they spend their hard-earned bucks. As an observer in the motorcycle press I consider the Celebration an investment in public relations, an investment in customer confidence and an investment in the long term future of S&S. At the Press Dinner in Sturgis this year, three industry icons, Mike Corbin, Mike Taylor (Barnett) and Kenny Price (Samson) formed a panel and were questioned by a moderator about surviving industry downturns. Trimming ongoing costs was of course one of them, but what came through was their absolute confidence about weathering this current downturn - they’ve all weathered previous ones and - with the right moves - said that any sound company in the industry will survive. And Greg, given that Harley-Davidson has shut down production recently by closing their plants for specific periods due to revised downward sales forecasts, do you think that they should cancel the upcoming 105th Anniversary celebrations?
When the best companies have to lay off, it says a lot about the trouble we are all in. More jobless people, less spending by consumers = slow down to recession to………..Almost nothing in the motorcycle business that we really need to buy. The question is not about S&S. It’s about the future of our country. Who and what created this big mess? Back to politics. Interest rates were too low during 5 years. It created the illusion of easy money forever. The big lesson. Spend your money, not the one you borrowed.
I feel the execs at S&S were fully aware of these impending layoffs well before the 50th celebration. A 50 year anniversary for a business is deserving of a celebration, and I am glad all the employess got to be part of it, I wish they could have all kept their jobs too, but business realities are harsh in times like these. I still am glad to see a fine company like S&S make it 50 years, making tough decisions like this may help them survive another 50.
Just another example of a failing economy. However, a must agree that the 50th celebration was a good idea. In the end, the event will generate more revenue for the company by spreading the news about S&S and their excellent line of products. This company is solid in my opinion and I fully expect them to rebound.
I heard nothing but praise from those that attended the S&S celebration.
I agree with the above on a “50 year anniversary for a business is deserving of a celebration”. I think it had nothing to do with the reality of the industry downturn and was just a matter of time fir the economic down turn. In tough times comes tough decisions.
Nitrous Phil
It used to be that when things got tough, companies would lower their prices, in hopes that it would increase sales. Now, they just lay people off to make the bottom line. Lowering prices works well with supply and demand and is the way a free economy works. Those that think they will survive this recession without lowering their prices will find out that somebody will and they will run out of employees before they weather the storm. Re: “Spread the word about S&S”, who doesn’t know about S&S engines in the motorcycle world?
Maybe the foreign market that S&S has pandered too should pick up the slack and save some American jobs!
Troy, if you lower your prices (only if margin are enough to do so), your net profit goes down and you end up laying off employees. In addition, the reason why people don’t buy engines is beyond prices. It’s because DON’T BUY engines at all. Some companies will try to sell at a loss to boost cas flow to survive during a short time. but you just accumulate losses until you lay off people and close your business.
Gar. FYI, a USA EPA approved engine is still illegal in Europe. The approval criteria is quite different.
Quite a different perspective than the one written by Jeff Nicklus on the other thread!
John,
S&S doesn’t only build EPA motors, their standard motor is still available worldwide. Lower the prices and maybe lay-offs wouldn’t be required.
Cheesydoesit,
I believe Jeff Nicklus Customs / Desperado Motorcycles uses TP Engineering Motors or the Billet motor they build in house ?????
Gar,
Their standard engine is for off-road use, illegal on the roads here and europe. Only the X-wedge is legal here in 49 states. I think it’s a big part of S&S problems. Other engine manufacturers have the same problem, even worse because they don’t have yet an EPA approved engine. So the others should fail before S&S.
John,
Totally not true. Almost every American Engine manufacturer has an EPA approved engine on the market today. S&S, TP, Jim’s, Ultima, Revtech to mention a few are all EPA certed. S&S is failing due to their gestapo style tactics with their OEM dealers and pricing. Hell, I can buy a Chevrolet 502 crate motor for less money than manufacturer (OEM) price of an S&S motor. That to me is a problem.
Gar. As far as I know, only Ultima is the other engine manufacturer with EPA approval (for some engine). I am talking: 2010 US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Tier II standards Jims, TP Eng, Rev Tech. are not. Let’s all check this by contacting them.
We are not in 20010 yet!
Troy
I think you are dead on with your comment:
“It used to be that when things got tough, companies would lower their prices, in hopes that it would increase sales. Now, they just lay people off to make the bottom line.”
These companies I am sure have “wiggle” room in their profits. . I know of several construction companies who bid jobs for “cost” so they can pay for their equipment and staff. Why is it such a stretch to ask manufacturers to do the same through this rough stretch?
I would be interested to hear from Mr. Wimmer and Nicker on this one. They were quite vocal in the thread about Pro-One, that these people who own the companies have sacrificed to be where they are, so there is no way they should lower their prices and make less money.
I mean when is the last time you saw a sale on S&S or TP engines?
Here is another explanation from the retail side. S&S resell policy is a nightmare. They do not allow retailers to advertise prices (even MSRP) on their website and/or in their catalogs. The consumer has to call the retailer’s call center (if he has one) and is required to talk to someone that has been trained by S&S and is a “certified technician”. This training is no cheap at all and the dealer pays for all expenses. So if “Joe Smith” wants to buy an S&S Carb online, by himself, without asking any questions, well… he can’t.
Despite the fact that I agree with a strong resell policy to protect pricing and margins and the fact that a sales person should know about the products he or she sells, S&S requirements over the past few years has made the brand very hard to deal with, almost impossible. A lot of retailers just dropped the brand because it was to hard to deal with them.
No retail sales = No PO for S&S = No jobs for the Lacrosse, WI folks. Very simple.
S&S is a very cocky company that thinks their sh… don’t stink. In an economy like ours today and in a motorcycle industry with so many issues to solve, nobody needs a vendor who adds more BS to the table. A $6000 engine is hard to sell these days. If on top of that you have to deal with a policy that is not dealer friendly, might as well not be in business. The days where S&S had dealers banging at their door for products are way over. Unfortunately for them, they have not evolved with the market. Today announcement is your typical result.
Pretty scary result… 30% of the work force won’t have a job.
not sure what the productions of the larger companies like AIH were, but the loss of a few thousand unit sales a year wont keep the payroll flowing well. those types of sales would be less profit per unit, but it pulls you thru and flows the bux just the same. i wouldnt speculate on outstanding debts from same.
Gypsy is probably right. How many small manufacturers disappeared and shrunk the volume of orders to S&S? How many of them closed or bankrupt without paying their bills? It’s also true that by putting too many restrictions on dealers S&S shot itself in the foot. It seems to me that it’s illegal for S&S to forbid a dealer to advertise online the price he wants to sell an engine for to the public. Any lawyer reading this to clear this important point?
A few good points have been made on this board but a few things have also been said that, without knowing more about the company’s financials are meaningless rhetoric.
1) Redneck - I agree with you. They have positioned themselves as a premium product and with that have established a more complicated value chain for the end-user or consumer. They certainly have the right to do that and it protects their product, its image, and how its sold but does not make it easy to be a customer.
2) For those who wrote about the company ‘giving up profits to stay afloat’ or lowering prices to increase volume, etc. - the fact of the matter is that without knowing whether or not the Company has debt service (i.e. they have borrowed money and owe regular interest payments) it is impossible to make a call on what they ’should have done’. The fact is if they owe the bank or bondholders money, they have to figure out a way to make those payments. Even if it means layoffs to make it happen. Remember - if they don’t manage to make those payments no one has a job to go to (that is, the company files for bankruptcy). Moreover, given the state of the industry (and consumer spending in general) this doesn’t seem to be an S&S pricing issue so much as it is a demand issue. People are spending less right now. Period.
3) Brad - your comments about everyone spending less is spot-on and, dare I say, that it seems Americans have finally ‘found religion’.
4) Ex S&S Dealer - it’s not illegal. A company can establish whatever terms it chooses when it picks who distributes their product and how it is marketed (as long as you’re not discriminating on the grounds of any of the federally-protected groups - race, religion, etc.)
RedNeck
I think you have completely missed the point of the S&S resale policy. I’m sure it’s to protect the retail customer, the dealer and S&S Cycle. To start with look at the automotive aftermarket parts industry, Jegs and Summit sells performance parts for the same price that a Napa or Auto Zone store buys the same part for, this is saving the dealer from the internet sluts. When a retail customer buys a part for his bike, he needs to buy that part from a dealer that knows which part is right for him. For this reason the dealer must be trained and be willing to invest in his dealerships future. I see dealers sell the wrong parts way too often, then bad mouth the part manufacture to protect their own inefficiencies. This protects S&S Cycle. If more manufactures had the balls to implement the same resale police as the one S&S has, this country would have healthier dealers and happier customers. I believe S&S has done more for this industry than people give them credit for. The factory trained Bar and Shield stores are by far the worst at selling performance products to their customers.
jspfc,
Quebec- and Dyno- have about said all that’s needed.
-nicker-
Quebec/Nicker
I think it is a valid point that no one on here knows S&S’s debt structure, but regardless of what they owe, how they owe it, and to whom they owe it, laying off people to pay debt seems like it would be a band aid on a wound that needs stitches.
Reduce the price by cutting profit and overhead(reduce salaries of upper management/ownership and cut marketing costs). It seems those are the only numbers that S&S can manipulate quickly in their business plan. By reducing these numbers they should be able to cut prices, keep jobs, and when the market turns they can make up an excuse as to why they are increasing prices.
Dyno Dave…
I totally agree with you. People who sells peformance products such as S&S should know what they are talking about. I am all up for training especially for call center guys who don’t have access to all the info. I am also all for a strong pricing policy protecting the dealer, the prices and the margins for everybody. Less stupid things said on the phone, less mistakes and less returns. What I disagree with is the fact that 1. S&S requires a dealer to go to Lacrosse and pay over $2000 per person to be certified (can you imagine the cost if other performance products vendors would do the same? TP, Jims, Crane Cams etc…) When you have 165 employees, miilion dollar show truck and state of the art facility, you can pay a road rep to travel all over the country and do training. And 2. the fact that you cannot advertise a price anywhere (even MSRP) is stupid. How do you make a shopping cart work on a website when you can’t attach a price to a product? How does the customer check out and pay for his order online if he has a set of pipe with a price, an air cleaner with a price and an S&S carb with no price? We loose the entire order because one vendor imposes a stupid policy unless he calls. What if the dealer is a one-man show with the guy being certified by S&S but he can’t come to the phone because he has a bike on the lift or is talking to another customer? He still looses the order on his website because the customer can’t talk to him.
As I said before, they think their s… don’t stink. But these days, a dealer needs to feel that a vendor work WITH him not impose everything on him to make it feel like he is not doing his job. I like S&S products but we stop selling it because of the price policy. We were buying over $80,000/year which I believe would have paid for a couple of salaries of the guys who just go fired because his boss’s head had become too big.
Unfortunately, it’s not illegal for them to do that. They can refuse to sell to whoever they want. Lucky for the dealers, other vendors sells engines, mufflers and EFI tuners. So it’s not really an issue anymore. I just feel bad for the guys who lost their job. It’s pretty hard to find one in our industry these days with all those companies closing down. Vendors and dealers should work together, not against each other.
Lets look at this a different way for a moment and crunch some numbers. Suppose S$S sold 30 thousand motors 3 years ago, 10 thousand motors 2 years ago, 7 thousand motors last year and 5 thousand this year. if the motors sold for 6 thousand each they would be down in sales by $150000000 (yes $150 million dollars). If we take into account the lost sales on carbs,cranks ect ect it couldnt be a pretty picture. We also have to think what cnc machines cost,xwedge development,fuel injection programers,NHRA drag race program, EPA test lab,and new buildings would do to the bottom line. I sure hope they didnt hock the farm! Those motors we dont want to buy anymore for 6
thousand dollars might be a deal because when you think cost they might have 50 thousand dollars apiece in cost with that huge debt load. I look for a new CEO soon
Joel. Where did you take these numbers? Are you an ex or employee from S&S? Or did you just write a fictional piece? Everybody would like to know.
A new CEO? It’s a family business belonging to the Smith family. Yep, Joel, tell us about your numbers.
Sales through distributors, Drag, CCI and Tucker Rocky went down 58% this year. Sales to bike builders, clone companies etc… went down 66%. Overall S&S ales were down 39%.
Joel’s numbers might be a little off but the decrease is certainly here and a good CEO would have seen that and adjust instead of going full blown on facilities, show trucks and other CNCs, EPA labs and all that stuff. Even if the investment is necessary (especially on EPA approval programs), this is a bunch of money that needed to be revised 2 years ago. By not doing this, they had to cut 60 jobs just to continue paying bills. The bottom line is simple: whatever the product is good or not and whatever an engine is EPA approved or not, if the finished bike doesn’t sell, the supplier doesn’t get orders. Add an harsh dealers policy, too much cockyness and a declining industry and you have a recipe for disaster.
Ask TP Engineering what they are doing these days… getting automotive contracts, running CNC machines for government projects etc… engines are made to order.No stock. What does S&S do? They come up with an expensive, complicated new engine that pretty much nobody can afford or want, except a few small production companies such as OCC or Big Dog. And those two are probably next in line for bankrupcy.
Dyno Dave - well put.
Hey Redneck. Do you work for Redneck Engineering? You seem to know what’s going on more than some others here.
No I am not… But let’s just say I know what’s going on in our industry….
By the way, Redneck Eng is another company who was buying quite a few S&S products and stopped because of much slower motorcycle sales. I remember this company with 30+ employees about 2 years ago… They are down to 8 today.
I heard that about Redneck while in Sturgis. What do you think is gonna happen with them? Going from 30+ employees down to 8, thats pretty serious! I also heard that Mike Marquart left the company? What’s up with that? I thought he pretty much ran Redneck & that Vince was just the owner?
Mike is a good friend. He left the company 2 weeks before Sturgis. Bottom line is that they don’t have work for everybody and cutting jobs is what they had to do. I am not sure what ’s going to happen to Vince. I don’t think he will be out of business but they cancelled their spot in Sturgis this year. I feel bad for them cuz the bikes are cool. I used to own a couple and was very happy with them.
But a $38.000 Bagger that looks like a chopper with bags and a fairing is over priced for today’s market when you can get a brand new 2009 CVO Road Glide with all the options for $36,000 and 2 year warranty on it. Comes back to the real value of things and the customer looking at resell value.
The list of small manufacturers in decline is long… big or small. And we’re not even done with all this yet
Putting all this aside, does anyone out there know for sure what company is the maker of the EFI controller that S&S uses on their “X-Wedge” motors?
RedNeck’s comments are very much right on the money. in my opinion.
Brett’s grandparents are turning over in their graves knowing how a family member ,their grandson, has abused the good name of S&S in this small enthusiasts based industry. Brett’s aunts, think there are two of them, are probably not very happy with all of Bret’s business decisions since being appointed CEO of the company.
Maybe the two aunts and the company board should bring back Warner Riley and Dennis Manning (BUB) to run the company, since these two were more considered the Smith’s sons than Gerorge Jr (Brett’s father), and Ken their natural sons.
Good luck to the company, but a good leason to young “know it all” Brett who needed something like this business turn down to give him a wake up call but knowing his business style he will most likley not learn anything from his past business decisions.
Mike and scott i dont work for S$S or have any insider knowledge on numbers and am sorry to all if it looked like i did. On the other hand i believe the numbers to be pretty close for an educated guess except all motors are not $6,000 each .
Hey RedNeck, what other manufacturers are in decline & which ones do you think are in serious trouble?
jtm… sorry man, I can’t release this info…. But nobody is safe these days. The only company that is currently no worried too much about sales going down is Kuryakyn.
Redneck, you are a damn fool if you think OCC will go bankrupt
BTW Redneck, why are you so secretive about who you are? Who are you? I am saying you have part to do with Kuryakyn i bet or work for Vince. None of us hide who we are nor should you.
Conrad,
OCC is not a motorcycle company. It’s barely a marketing company that sells T-Shirts, the occasional company promo bikes (all ugly by the way) and got lucky. If case you didn’t know, Discovery was looking at another company to shoot their little show. This particular company declined the offer from the execs and on their way back home the Discovery guys stopped by the OCC small shop and overheard the 2 Paul’s arguing and got the idea of creating a show around a son and dad running a small bike shop next to the other family business. The rest is history (good or bad). Sorry man, I forgot those guys have a world headquarter and a dealer network of hummmm…. 4 dealers. Gee man, that’s a business plan right here.
If you think those guys will be in business 3 years from now, you’re crazy. But at least the owners made enough money to cover their butts and their grand children’s butts
If you want to bet some money on this statement, let’s do it. I know stuff you don’t know about OCC.
… which answer your other question: I don’t work for any of the companies you are mentioning and I’d rather stay away from the spotlight if you don’t mind. I have nothing to do with Kuryakyn, unfortunately. And I certainly don’t work for Vince or I would be unemployed today, ahaha
Redneck,
I hate having to guess as to who you are. You know a shitload about the industry and It honestly bothers me when I dont know some stuff. lol.
But pertaining to OCC. Orange County Choppers? What is that? A kit bike? oh yea thats right a T-Shirt company. I am pretty sure they will be around for more than 3 years making a few bikes here and there like they do now. I remember years back right when they started the series that one of our dealers became a dealer of theirs. What a joke. I remember clearly looking at the bikes laughing about how they didnt even use dust covers on the neck bearings. I remembered feeling some of the spoked wheels and some of the spokes were so loose you could rattle them. But I must agree, they are set for life and so are their grand kids.
The story we were told was way different than that one also. I know Hugh put Jesse on the map but from what I have heard for several years now is that Paul Sr. hired a company to come in and do this. Then he went to Discovery and a few others and worked a deal with Discovery in the end. I remember someone of the marketing company telling some of our guys that and how the Discovery channel looking at someone on the East Coast to compete with television time to Jesse was a misread. But Idk at this point sounds liek you know your stuff on these kind of deals.
Conrad
Conrad,
I have been around for a while but we probably never met. I don’t like publicity :-). But yes I know a few things others don’t. Maybe I’ll become a good blogger on this site then… LOL.
As for OCC, there are many stories about how all this started and ended. I did get a chance to spend some time with Hugh King and others at Discovery when they were shooting the Bikers Build Off Series. And Hugh and I got to talk about Jesse, OCC and other projects in the works. Unfortunately for him, Jesse bailed out for reasons that we can’t discuss here (good call… but he is coming back with a new show under a different production company… thank you Sandra….). Discovery dropped OCC because of ratings and because Discover basically got tired of the whole custom bike world. It’s such a small viewers base compared to NASCAR or animal shows (even smaller than crab fishing apparently…). Anyway, in order to get things going with TLC, Paul Sr finally hired his own Marketing crew and even co-produced some of the episodes. It’s a smart move to keep him on TV and he has the money and experience to do it.
As for “bikes” they are building, well your comments say it all. I remember a discussion with Jay Leno in CA when they did his bike and Jay was telling a few close people that this was the worse bike he ever had in his garage and he wouldn’t even use it as a coffee table.
But we have to remember that building a promo bike for companies like Wendy’s is actually a nice and different way to advertise. A 30 sec spot on NBC cost millions. An OCC bike, around $200K and they can show it all over the country. So it’s a better marketing support.
Their production bikes are all ugly, can’t ride them, can’t resell them and frankly the design is questionable. I was surprised to see that new “bagger” and thought they would do okay with it until I was informed that there is no immediate plan to actually produce those.
There are issues with the X-Wedge (I am sure you’ve read my comments on the S&S Post) and the contract with a certain very well-known seat/fiber glass product manufacturer in California is in the toilet.
OCC T-Shirts are already harder to find (even Walmart cut them way off). Who is going to pay for that big “worldwide headquarter” and all those machines? Last time I checked, CNC machines don’t produce T-Shirts :-).
Wait and see as usual. But they are next on the list. The difference between them and others is that they banked a tone of cash on memorabilia and you and me know that selling a $3 T-Shirt for $35 at a show brings a lot more margins and cash in your pocket than a $30,000 custom bike. I applaud their business strategy and marketing campaigns. To my knowledge, they are the only ones in this industry that made that much money doing basically nothing except bitching at each other in front of a camera. Nobody come close.
Meanwhile back to the S&S blog: Redneck, I don’t know who you are and it doesn’t matter to me. I know that most of the comments you have made about S&S are true. They are arrogant, not dealer friendly, engines too expensive and have the same attitude that put Ironhorse down the tubes. I’m not saying that they don’t produce a good product, I’m saying that customer service is the key to any business relationship. Dealers are customers to them! I’m not saying that dealers shouldn’t know their product, but some of us know our engines quite well and there is no consideration for experience, just an extra couple of grand for them. I have worked with metal for over 40 years and there isn’t much I don’t know about machining it or it’s price. I would venture to say that the margin on most of their engines is between 200 and 300%. There is a lot of leeway in a margin like that. Their exclusivity is there to keep it that way. Most of us have to hope that our margins will be close to 30%, if we’re lucky. There are some good engines out there and thankfully we still have those choices. Good blog!
Actually the story with OCC’s start is that a production company know as Pilgram Productions was planning an East coast show to compete with the Original Productions Shows with Jesse and the up coming Biker Build Off series. Originally Pilgram had another east coast motorcycle shop in mind for their show, however, with less than two weeks until filming was scheduled to start the “shop” that had agreed to the show backed out as they thought the show “would go no where”. The boys at OCC were the second choice of Pilgram and within the same shoot schedule the OCC group stepped up to the plate and as they say, The rest is history!
I want to add that OCC Sr. reportdly paid the production company $40,000 to finance the Pilot. The fight happened by accident during the shooting. Jr & Sr didn’t want the fight to appear in the Pilot. As we know, the fight was the reason why the Pilot was accepted because it was perceived as very good entertainment for a TV audience. The 1st run confirmed that a fight will work well. The fight in each episode is the gimmick that made OCC series a success. Reason why a fight was scripted in each show. OCC is not about motorcycles but about entertainment. Motorcycles to build are a pretext for the show. You could do the same with 2 Chefs preparing a meal and fighting front of the cameras about the ingredients to use. The big mistake of OCC is to go in production bikes. Big heads, big heads…They can only burn the millions they made. They should retire in the Bahamas.
I see everybody has different variants to the OCC story which basically comes back to pure luck on their end. The Marketing behind was great, add some staged fight and a couple of guys that know how to bend a gastank and you have a show. As George said, big mistake on their end trying to come up with production bikes. This could kill the company and probably will.
As for Troy’s comment.. right on the dot Bud. Something’s got to give at one time or another.
Thanks for all the comments on this blog.
I was told, by someone very, very close to the situation that the $40K was paid to the “Boys” to allow the fight scene to remain in the show. Whether or not that is true …. who knows …. not me for sure. Whatever the case they are the best t-shirt guys in history!
I’ll say it one more time:
The Genesis of OCC isn’t the issue.
Neither is their skill or luck at business.
Neither is their success or how much money they’ve put in the bank.
The issue is about an image of the “Three Stooges” as custom motorcycle builders they portray on TV. Be it an act or not, that image has rubbed off on all of us who have worked for years creating scooter art.
Anyone that’s ever built a bike quickly figured out what was up on the TV show. But the viewing public didn’t, so in their eyes, we are all of the same ilk….
Moreover, i’ve actually had people tell me that Mikey was just playing ’stupid” and in real life has a PhD… And they are serious..!!!
That boy is either one damned good actor, or just another manic depressive with a well deserved inferiority complex.
In any case, the damage is done.
Anyone seeking to develop a business case around this industry is going to have to overcome that image when they go to the bank or enter into any mainstream business transaction.
In comparison, whatever S&S has done, they have done based on some rational engineering and business decisions. From that perspective, their legacy has done nothing but bring credit to the industry.
IMHO anyway.
-nicker-
Hey RedNeck. As an industry insider, do you know what happened to cause Kim Suter of KC Creations & Aaron Greene of Paramount Custom Cycles to close their doors? Both of these guys really seemed to be very smart motorcycle/business people. I went to Aaron’s shop last year & I was very impressed. I actually met Kim Suter hanging out at Rick Fairless’ booth at the Easyriders show in Pamona several years ago. I mean, Kim was on the BBO in the final season. That was a big deal! I was shocked to here he closed his doors. Maybe things in the motorcycle industry are tougher than we know.
JTM. How you know that Aaron Greene’s Paramount Custom Cycles closed its doors?
Hey George, I heard it before I went to Sturgis & I heard it many times while I was in Sturgis. Also I tried to call when I got home & thier phone # doesn’t work. I can’t hardly believe it as I think Aaron Greene is one of the smartest motorcycle minds in the industry. Very sad about his shop & Kim Suter’s shop.
Jtm
I am not familiar with the KC Creation issue but this is another company that took a large beating from the motorcycle industry going down a little. The bikes they sell are okay but same as any other, once you overload a market, nothing sells. Basically you end up spending more money and when less comes in, you’re screwed.
As for Aaron, I know a little bit of history on business from his old days working with Drag Specialties. Aaron is pretty smart, great bike builder, tones of ideas but he is not a business man. He came into the clone bike business very late and with models that were pretty blah… He hired the wrong people and failed to develop a reliable dealer network. He also refused to put a good marketing plan together and spend marketing funds correctly to push his stuff. If you base your business on your image and a couple of articles in magazines and think people will buy your stuff because you were featured a couple of times in Hot Bike Magazine, you’re set for failure. I think this is the case. I don’t think Aaron stopped building bikes and closed his business. He simply is not building production bikes anymore.
As for Mikey being a PHD, that’s a joke. High School Diploma at the most. However, Daddy has enough money now to buy him 4 years in college
Redneck,
Yea I heard the same about Leno saying that about the bike. As for Jesse he is doing great last time I had checked. I live about 50 miles form him here in Texas and I see him on occasion. I heard he has a new deal coming aswell but IDK for sure what. I believe its going to deal with Hot Rods. He put a bunch of dough in a place called South Austin Speed Shop here and he spent a lot of time building a new Mercury custom in this new shop. I hope it works out for him. Jesse is a great guy and very bright when it comes to business.
Aaron was definitely not a businessman. His mom Gale was the head of that show while Aaron went to the shows, had fun, drink way too much and sold his production bikes and built his customs aswell. After a short while of his super wealthy parents throwing too much cash into the comapny I am sure they had had enough and called it quits. Atleast I hope that is all it is. Aaron is a cool dude in my opinion. Quite humble and quiet but nice.
Hey Conrad…I am impressed.. first time we agree on this blog…
used to buy a few thru MC Advantage, no more.
My thoughts on S&S is the recent layoffs of 60 employees needs to brought to everyone’s attention that approximatley 4 years ago, S&S had close to 320 employees! Now they are down to 195 or so, I think they forgot to mention that they have been laying off dedicated employees for the last two years! But of course, they wouldn’t want to mention that while getting ready for their 50th celebration! Funny how Brett Smith came into the picture about 4 years ago, and ever since then things have been going down hill!! What doe that tell you???
Seeing the way S&S used to stand by the small town dealers, and now have pushed them away with their big standards of being an S&S Dealer. Brett has ticked off and lost respect of so many dealers, distributors and manufacturers, that who knows if they will ever be able to gain that back!
I do believe that the economy has played a role in the downfall of S&S, but it’s been sliding down hill for quite some time! Also the decision to move part of S&S to La Crosse, so Brett could show off and have his BIG NAME ego, lost a lot of respect for the small town community where S&S orginally started.
It’s hard to see a lot of employees who believed in the history of S&S become shot down! S&S used to treat their employees like family, because it’s supposed to be a FAMILY business, now they are treated like a number, that is rapidly dwindling down!
Brett’s military attitude and personality has brought this company down! As someone said earlier in this blog, George Sr. and Marge are probably rolling over in their graves right now seeing how their grandson is digging a big hole!!
Like they always say….. It takes the first generation to make the business, second generation to run the business, and the third generation to RUIN the business!!!!!
I still believe S&S makes great performance parts, but what I don’t believe in is the politics and the way the company has taken their approaches!!
I couldn’t agree with you more.
I don’t want to start another debate on S&S but there are some association with a certain other company in Wisconsin that had a huge impact on their dealer policy, the way they started doing business, the way they treat employees and they way they interact with dealers.
Redneck,
Well I hope we can agree on more!
As per former S&S believer.
Brett is a great guy and I feel it just sucks that he came in at the downfall of this industry. He is a very smart man and definitely is getting a lot of critisizm at this point due to the market being so low compared to 5 years ago. I have nothing but faith in the industry as a whole and wish all the guys at S&S and everywhere else the best of luck. I hope they pull through, they have a hell of a name to keep up.
He may have come in when the economy was starting to go down, BUT his many unwise decisions and choices for the company, including pushing away many of the small town dealers, (who I think he has forgotten they are what got S&S going in the beginning)……expecting so much from certain manufacturers,who in the end never pulled through!
Brett Smith is not a people person, he just needs to go back into the army where he can play his drill sargeant games there!!!
The Company’s mission when it started was not run in that matter, and should have never gotten to this point. I do believe that a company that grows that fast, needs change, but does not need to lose their reputation of serving anyone no matter who you are or what size of business you run. To me, as long as a dealer wants to support your products, and believes in your product, you should support them as well!!
Conrad, Brett Smith has been CEO of S&S way before the industry downfall. He was here when everything was running very very smooth for S&S and others. That’s how he got the gig actually.
I think he did a fair job trying to get that EPA standard together, work with the MIC and all that and get some rules together in an industry that has none. This was key to the survival of the engine business.
Brett, as well as others (including myself) have looked at what has happened in Europe for the past 13 years on TUV standards (much harder to get than EPA), Not only on engines, but frames, pipes, handlebars and lights to name a few. It was just a question of time before the US would get something like that. Brett was smart enough to look into it far in advance and try to come up with some solutions. But even with all the work that he has done, that didn’t help the engine industry stay in a profitable business. If you add to this some resell policy that is straight from a drill sargeant diary (:-), a questionable personality (I agree, he is not a people person) and a few mistakes along the road, and you get the today’s situation. Can they survive, sure they can. When you go from 300+ employees to 165 and then to about 100, and you cut production by 40% and slow down on marketing and other sponsorships, you save enough money to pay bills, and keep some of the machines running. They have a big names, they are still backed up by heavy distributors and they dealer base is still strong. But that’s not S&S’s fault if Titan or AIH are out of business. S&S was just a supplier for them and I don’t think they could have forecasted so many companies going down.
As we all agree, the product is good and reliable. But, you buy from people you like, and that make business with you easy. That says it all.
Just in…. related to the job cut at S&S….
“BAKER Drivetrain has announced that James Simonelli will be joining its Sales and Marketing staff. He brings a wealth of knowledge to the position, having over 15 years experience in the motorcycle industry, with the past 12 years spent at S&S Cycle. In his new role he will be handling technical and international sales as well as sponsorships and promotions”.
James was their event coordinator manager.
“He may have come in when the economy was starting to go down, BUT his many unwise decisions and choices for the company, including pushing away many of the small town dealers”
If you pay attention to Drag Specialties or anything they are doing the same exact thing now. They sent letters out to almost all of their dealers stating that if you do not spend 10k annually witht hem they are closing your dealer accounts. That is a load of shit. You would think they would have a contract about minimums BEFORE they make you a dealer. They are doing exactly what S&S did. I still dont understand why Drag is doing that being the biggest motorcycle parts thing around but whatever.
Redneck,
The TUV thing is a joke, I think. They are so strict it is not even funny yet the guys over there still build some rediculous stuff. Like Kodlin, that guy has to be one of my all time favorite builders. Everything is different and no one ever tries to mimic what he does like they do with everyone else. I feel EPA is a load of crap too but I guess I am still in that young person faze to where if it has Cats and doesnt smell like raw burning fuel coming out of the exhaust its boring and not running at its full potential. I wish the best for S&S, They will make it ofcourse but it just sucks that Brett is kind of taking the fall for what is going on. No President can predict the future market in their industry and that sucks to be hammered down. But reality is that the market is down and they had to lay people off.
Conrad….
Read my post from August 22nd: “I don’t want to start another debate on S&S but there are some association with a certain other company in Wisconsin that had a huge impact on their dealer policy, the way they started doing business, the way they treat employees and they way they interact with dealers.” Thats should answer the first part of your latest post. See what I mean buddy?
TUV is a joke big time, just like EPA. It’s a way the government found to make a few dollars on the suppliers, retailers and consumers. I am very very familiar with TUV issues and I can tell you right now that if EPA become close to what TUV is doing in Europe these days, we’re in a lot of shit to build bikes, register them and sell them.
I am not sure if Kodlin ever built one custom that you can ride legally on european roads. Same for most of the european bikes we see here in the US. T.U.V. is very tough and very costly if you want to be approved.
Justin
I have known Fred (Koldin) for a long time, even before his contract with Custom Chrome.
He builds some of the sickest bikes in our industry. Despite the fact he is German (ahahaah), he has exceptional qualities and as a builder, he can be placed at the same level as Arlen Ness in my book. I rode with Fred from Cali to Sturgis about 2 years ago. He had a crazy chopper with oil in the frame tubes and a braking system that would scare you. This bike was not TUV for sure but the powerplant was.
Now, I can tell you that most of his products are TUV approved. That’s part of his deal with CCI. His frames, pipes, gastanks, handlebars etc.. are all TUV. If you buy all his parts and get an approved TUV engine from Revtech or S&S, he can build you a one-of custom that will pass the TUV standards.
But his crazy customs are not (like the last S&S 50th anniversary on) and I don’t believe they were intended to be. I don’t think he cares anyway.
Check out the latest edition of HOT BIKE magazine (november 08 - not sure if it’s in the newstand yet) for more info on the current EPA and ARB regulations. Pretty good article on page 62-64.
Redneck,
I could not agree more. I think Kodlin is one of the sickest builders around. Everything is crazy looking and futuristic as well as some stuff from the past. I love his style and the way he makes everything look different.
BTW…Redneck,
What kind of views do you have on the X Wedge?
The X-Wedge is sick.
Hey All
I, being a proud dealer of both Drag and S&S, believe the efforts these companies have put forward are very important to our industry. Let’s look at Drags 12k per year requirement to remain a dealer. If a dealer buys 12,000 dollars in parts in a calendar year, that’s $1000 per month, that’s maybe a $350 per month gross profit. No legitimate dealer can keep the doors open with that amount of profit. I believe a dealer with this amount of sales are buying parts at a discount for themselves and their friends. These dealers will also have a high parts return rate that costs the distributer both money and man power. I believe if a dealer is cut off his customers will move to another dealer that will still take care of him. Let’s say a dealer buys $100,000 a year, that’s about $35,000 (less than $3000 per month) in gross profit, that’s not even enough money to keep the doors open either. S&S is doing the same thing, trying to keep as much profit as possible for the real dealers. Either get in business or get out. As far as Kuryakyn goes, here’s a company that imports their products and sells retail. This is not dealer friendly at all. At least S&S and Drag are supporting their dealer network.
Thanks
Hello All:
I thought I’d take the time to respond to several of the comments on this blog. By the way, I’m not hiding behind some ficticious name or moniker. These are my words and can be credited directly to me, rather than guessing who is really writing these responses.
“Is it possible that the cost of the 50th anniversary accelerated problems already present?” No, the 50 anniversary engines and the goodwill of the community paid for the entire event. The event also raised over $100K for local charities. S&S did not profit from the event in any way other than whatever positive press we received for it.
“It used to be that when things got tough, companies would lower their prices, in hopes that it would increase sales. Now, they just lay people off to make the bottom line. Lowering prices works well with supply and demand and is the way a free economy works.” The layoffs at S&S were probably delayed longer than many other companies in the industry. While we have been laying off direct employees the past few years due to the combination of increased productivity and a downturn in sales, this recent layoff was the largest event we’ve ever had and it was both personally and professionally difficult for everyone. If we lower prices any further, we may be forced to make more cuts in order to improve upon our cash flow situation–something everyone in this economic climate is attempting to improve.
“Maybe the foreign market that S&S has pandered too should pick up the slack and save some American jobs!” Good point, it is actually the foreign markets that are supporting S&S and nearly all the other global v-twin companies right now. Just review HD’s 10K for definitive support of that assertion. If it were not for our foreign sales, we’d be in much worse shape. However, I’m not quite sure what we’ve done to “pander” to them. We treat them like we do any of our customers–with commitment and respect. I think it is time for some of you to get over the “foreign” issue. We are a global economy and our industry–that you all have helped make so successful–is global as well. You should all be proud of that.
“Only the X-wedge is legal here in 49 states. I think it’s a big part of S&S problems.” We actually have several different engine configurations that are EPA certified. For more information on this, please review our website, call us, or call your local S&S dealer. We have the widest array of EPA certified engines in the world and we are currently getting certification work done for California as well.
“S&S resell policy is a nightmare. They do not allow retailers to advertise prices (even MSRP) on their website and/or in their catalogs.” This is not true. There are two things we do not allow and are very strict about it: 1) You cannot promote pricing via the internet, UNLESS it is referenced to a PUBLISHED price schedule (e.g. J&P references their catalog pricing in their internet ads for our product). Therefore, you CAN publish pricing, but it must come from a published source like a catalog. We do that so “internet” sellers that have no expense associated with the bricks and mortar of servicing our customers don’t hurt legitimate dealers. I see that this bothers some of you, but it is actually our dealer sales that are growing at a more rapid pace than any of our other customers (distributors and OEMs). As a matter of fact, it is only the dealers that are growing right now. 2) We DO NOT allow “grocery cart shopping” on the internet. We do not support this because TOO MANY times someone has purchased our parts from an “internet-only” seller and they go to a local “bricks and mortar” dealer to get technical assistance. That is not fair to that dealer. I will not apologize for looking out for our legitimate dealer network. Without our dealers, we are sunk. We do not want what happened in the automotive performance industry to happen to our industry and that is why we do what we do.
“People who sells peformance products such as S&S should know what they are talking about. I am all up for training especially for call center guys who don’t have access to all the info. I am also all for a strong pricing policy protecting the dealer, the prices and the margins for everybody. Less stupid things said on the phone, less mistakes and less returns. What I disagree with is the fact that 1. S&S requires a dealer to go to Lacrosse and pay over $2000 per person to be certified (can you imagine the cost if other performance products vendors would do the same? TP, Jims, Crane Cams etc…) When you have 165 employees, miilion dollar show truck and state of the art facility, you can pay a road rep to travel all over the country and do training. And 2. the fact that you cannot advertise a price anywhere (even MSRP) is stupid. How do you make a shopping cart work on a website when you can’t attach a price to a product? How does the customer check out and pay for his order online if he has a set of pipe with a price, an air cleaner with a price and an S&S carb with no price? We loose the entire order because one vendor imposes a stupid policy unless he calls. What if the dealer is a one-man show with the guy being certified by S&S but he can’t come to the phone because he has a bike on the lift or is talking to another customer?” 1) S&S simply cannot pay for everyone’s training. We have an active dealer network well over 2,500 strong and for us to provide that service for free would further strain our situation. It seems funny that we are criticized for layoffs, yet we are then supposed to take on the cost of training our entire dealer network. I firmly believe that if you want to succeed as a dealer, you must continue to get training. We offer it and it doesn’t cost over $2,000/person. Right on our website, it states that a full week of training for the first person is $1850 and $1500 for each one thereafter. Furthermore, if a dealer gets Pro-Tuning Certified, their discount will increase a minimum of 2.5% and as much as 5%. There is value in the training. 2) “How do you make a shopping cart work when you can’t attach a price?” EXACTLY—we do not have any desire to have our parts (other than apparel and maintenance parts) sold via the internet, THUS the policy. This protects our dealers—PERIOD!
“A new CEO? It’s a family business belonging to the Smith family.” My employment is always on the line at this company. You never know, I could be terminated tomorrow…
“Sales through distributors, Drag, CCI and Tucker Rocky went down 58% this year. Sales to bike builders, clone companies etc… went down 66%. Overall S&S ales were down 39%.” I have no idea where these numbers come from, but they are inaccurate. IF the first two numbers are true, how could our overall sales be down only 39%? The only way that could happen is for our dealer sales to be up massively. While they are up, they are not up enough to make up the difference stated here, but either way, it does fly in the face of the theory that we have so entirely alienated our dealer network when numbers like this are published.”
“Brett’s grandparents are turning over in their graves knowing how a family member ,their grandson, has abused the good name of S&S in this small enthusiasts based industry. Brett’s aunts, think there are two of them, are probably not very happy with all of Bret’s business decisions since being appointed CEO of the company.” I’m sorry that some of you resort to personal attacks and innuendo on this blog. My grandparents were two people I had great love for and I would never intentionally do anything to tarnish their name and/or reputation. I would request that you and others would leave my family members out of this.
“Maybe the two aunts and the company board should bring back Warner Riley and Dennis Manning (BUB) to run the company, since these two were more considered the Smith’s sons than Gerorge Jr (Brett’s father), and Ken their natural sons.” Once again, this is such an erroneous statement that even Warner and Denis would be ashamed to hear it. I know Warner quite well (he was at the 50th) and he would be completely offended by such a statement. I believe Denis would share those sentiments as well.
“Seeing the way S&S used to stand by the small town dealers, and now have pushed them away with their big standards of being an S&S Dealer. Brett has ticked off and lost respect of so many dealers, distributors and manufacturers, that who knows if they will ever be able to gain that back!” Please see my earlier posts regarding our efforts to protect our dealers. Furthermore, our minimum initial purchase (for a new dealer) is $750. Our annual purchase requirement to remain active is $1,250 (which I decreased from $2,500 this past October). The cost to provide services to a dealer including mailings, open house freebies, catalogs, etc. is real and if we don’t have dealers buying our product, then they cannot remain active. HOWEVER, dealers that do $2,500+ directly with distributors and nothing (or less than the annual requirement) with us are still treated as active dealers. We literally have hundreds and hundreds of dealers that get all the same benefits of our direct dealer customers that have a zero or NEGATIVE balance with us because of their distributor relationships. They have negative balances because we handle the warranty and/or return issues for many of them. Is it really an unrealistic requirement for us to have our dealers do at least $1,250 on an annual basis? What we don’t want is someone that opens a fictitious dealer account with us so they can get dealer pricing for themselves and their buddies. ONCE AGAIN, this does nothing to help our dealer network—the people we need to support any way possible while maintaining the integrity of our brand and quality of our product.
“He may have come in when the economy was starting to go down, BUT his many unwise decisions and choices for the company, including pushing away many of the small town dealers, (who I think he has forgotten they are what got S&S going in the beginning)……expecting so much from certain manufacturers, who in the end never pulled through!” This is another misstatement. When I arrived at the company, we were more focused on selling through distributors and had done little to maintain dealer direct relationships because we were so busy trying to catch up to demand. Nearly every decision I’ve made since I’ve been at S&S has been directed toward developing our dealer-direct relationships and doing everything possible to support our legitimate dealer network. If you consider a mobile home in Indiana with a lean-to out front and a goat tied to a tree a legitimate dealer, then we’ll have to agree to disagree (that is a true story, by the way). We have been under pressure to further increase our annual minimums by distributors in the name of “cleansing the dealer network.” Instead, we reduced our annual minimum by half. This was in large part due to the fact that we purchased the assets of Flathead Power and wanted to make sure that those small town vintage/classic dealers weren’t getting hammered by a $2,500 annual minimum when the majority of their work is tied to keeping the old bikes running. How anyone can say that we’ve “pushed away” our small town dealers in light of these facts is a conversation worth having. I am committed to these dealers and would like to know how these acts are not protecting them. Please help me understand.
“Joel’s numbers might be a little off but the decrease is certainly here and a good CEO would have seen that and adjust instead of going full blown on facilities, show trucks and other CNCs, EPA labs and all that stuff. Even if the investment is necessary (especially on EPA approval programs), this is a bunch of money that needed to be revised 2 years ago.” This is a fair point, but not even the HD execs saw all this coming. 1) We needed to expand our facilities if the sales trend we were experiencing was going to continue. We expanded in 2004, 2005 was our best year, and the bottom dropped out in 2006 and we have seen progressive declines in complete engine sales since then. That is no mystery. What some of you should know, is that contrary to what several bloggers on this site claim, our market share is INCREASING—albeit in a SUBSTANTIALLY depressed market. FURTHERMORE, our core business (bolt-on aftermarket parts) has been increasing over this same period and so have our dealer sales. What has really hurt us are the big ticket items—engine sales. Name one company that is performing better in custom bike sales or engine sales than they were in 2004 or 2005 that isn’t brand new. All you have to do is look at what has happened to HD or consider that Honda is moving all motorcycle manufacturing back to Japan to get a feel for what is going on right now. Our industry and economy is in a major slump. 2) We do not own any show trucks. We lease per event and our lease is a mere fraction of the numbers that have been mentioned in some of these posts. 3) The money that we have been spending that should have been revised two years ago was spent OVER TWO YEARS ago. We bought the facilities in 2004 and committed the capital for all the other projects that have been addressed in these blogs back in 2004/2005. That is when the market was going crazy and the EPA/CARB were beginning to establish more stringent regulations and enforcing them (just ask Jesse James). We have spent very little in capital expenses since that time, but unless you are a director or member of the senior management team at S&S, you wouldn’t know that. That is why I’m taking the time to address some of these very false and erroneous claims.
“I would venture to say that the margin on most of their engines is between 200 and 300%.” You simply cannot have margins in excess of 100%–it is not mathematically possible. The equation for gross margin is GROSS PROFIT (which is SALES – COST OF PRODUCING PRODUCT) divided by SALES. Furthermore, if we were procuring such impossibly high margins, we probably would have no need to layoff so many dedicated, committed, loyal, and wonderful employees. Another possibility is that this particular blogger was talking about mark-up. Once again, such a mark-up would require a resulting gross margin of 50% to 66.7%. I have never seen such high margins on our engines—there is no way our OEM customers would stand for it and they are the ones that have been buying the preponderance of our engines for several years now.
“How many small manufacturers disappeared and shrunk the volume of orders to S&S? How many of them closed or bankrupt without paying their bills?” Excellent question. There are a SEVERAL names mentioned through this blog that filed bankruptcy or shut their doors without paying us. We’ve literally lost millions over the past 8 years from various builders and OEMs that haven’t been able to make it work. Yet, we continue to try and “hold the fort” and maintain stability in the market. Many of the builders and OEMs have come and gone more than once during my short career and S&S is still here and will be for a long time God willing.
LAST, as for my people skills and my military approach, there are many fair comments and observations. I am a bit militant and most presidents/CEOs are at some level. There is a command structure in most professionally run organizations and making the necessary transitions that our company needed to make based on economic, market, industry, and regulatory demands have not always endeared me to everyone. But believe it or not, I do have some friends in the industry, on the board, and amongst the workforce. They say the burden of command is only one man’s to bear. There is much truth to that and there is never a shortage of “Monday-morning quarterbacks.” I will simply leave you all with a very powerful quote by President Theodore Roosevelt that I carry around with me in my wallet:
“It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out where the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of good deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marked by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly, who errs, and who comes up short again and again, who knows great enthusiasms, great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows the triumph of high achievement and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that he shall never be with those cold timid souls who never know victory nor defeat.”
Both my father and my grandfather lived by that quote and introduced me to it. May God bless them and my entire family, our industry, S&S, its hard-working employees, and each of you.
Brett:
“The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; ” that says it all. Most of the people on this blog are the “cold timid souls who never know victory nor defeat.” . So why let them worry you?
Armchair quarterbacks are a dime a dozen, they can always do better, jump higher and criticize louder than everyone around them but you never see them in the game! They don’t have the balls to give up their little jobs, forty hour work weeks, paid vacations, sick leave and their 401K’s. As I like to say “Most people live lives of quiet desperation”. Only a few have the balls to be the gladiators.
I wonder how many people would have the balls to chime in on this, or any other blog, if they had to use their own true and correct identity ….. I would bet not many. So why worry yourself with their worthless criticisms? Your time is much too valuable to spend it listening to fools.
Carry on my friend and the hell with the naysayer’s!
Jeff Nicklus
Desperado Motorcycles / Jeff Nicklus Customs
jeff@jeffnickluscustoms.com
j.nicklus@desperadomotorcycles.com
FYI: I am not afraid to give my true idenity!
Jeff
What a pompous post. Different people have different goals in life. Not everyone wants to start and own a business. Money is not as important to some as others. So your comment of,
“the balls to give up their little jobs.”
is ignorant and if I worked for you, I would quit because that statement suggests everyone who doesn’t own a business must have a “little job”.
I can see where your son gets his diarrhea of the mouth from.
With that being said, unless Brett Smith has personally wronged someone, I don’t think anyone should be bad mouthing him or talking about how people would be rolling in graves, but Brett obviously is not in the same situation as you. He did not start S&S. Someone else did and he inherited his job(Would really be in that position if he wasn’t in the family?).
The difference between him and anyone else is that he had the right last name, and if the company is going in the tank, then he as the CEO should take the blame.
jspfc,
No, not everyone wants their own business, nor does everyone who does not want their own business post their know it all comments on blogs, as do some.
I stand by what I said in my previous posts “Most people live lives of quiet desperation.” You seem to be one of those I am referring to. Also, if you worked for me I doubt you would have the balls to quit.
As for my Son’s “diarrhea of the mouth”, I can blame that on his youth (21) and inexperience. I, on the other hand, have been around the block many times so I can say I speak from experience and I am certainly not afraid to state my opinions. If you agree with me that is cool, if not that is also cool, but whatever the case I will state my opinions. Also, as I said before, I will state my opinions under my true name; sorry you lack the balls to do as well.
Have you ever made a payroll? Have you ever had to lay people off? Have you ever had to lay awake nights worring about where your next dollar will come from so you can keep the company doors open? I doubt it. That shit isn’t easy and it just chaps my ass to listen to people bitch about people and situations they know nothing of, in this case: S&S and Brett Smith CEO.
Jeff
I could care a less what you think of me but it is funny that you say,
“If you agree with me that is cool, if not that is also cool,”
and in the breath before you make the assumption that,
“You seem to be one of those I am referring to.”
because I disagree with you. And you are quite wrong, I have no problem speaking my mind and I would have the “balls” to leave your company. I have quit jobs that pay quite a bit more than you could ever pay me. I live free and do as I want. Like I said money isn’t everything and if live like thinking it, well then you become a slave. And you are right that I don’t lie around at night and worry about payrolls but at this point in time that is my choice.
And yes, in my opinion you do have either diarrhea of the mouth or terrible inability to accurately articulate what you are thinking(Maybe your son can take an English class while you are paying for his college and teach you). And you are quite pompous, because your statement is basically calling anyone who doesn’t own a company a “little person” and I am not sure where you get off judging others. Very similar to how you don’t like people judging the worth and quality of your bikes.
And to be honest with you, I could really care a less if you know who I am or if anyone else on this site does. What are you going to come to my house and rough me up because you are big bad biker?
I am just someone who likes bikes as hobby and really has nothing to do with the “industry” except I am a customer. I can give my opinion as to what I see in the industry and why it is so f%ck$$ up.
I will guarantee you that I manage more money in 8 months than you, I, or anyone on this site will ever see combined in our lives. So there are people on this site who do understand business, business plans, financing etc and they aren’t all owners of companies.
Your statement just really irks me because any good leader knows it is the employees who make the company great, not some jerk-off who puts his name on it. So to call everyone who works for a living “little” with no “balls” is just mind boggling. The guys who don’t want to give credit where credit is due are really bad owners/managers.
Jeff
If you really want to continue this debate feel free to email directly:
jspfc@hotmail.com
jspfc,
As I said before, you are living a life or quiet desperation.
You may well manage more money than I in 8 months ???? So you have been at your current job 8 months. The difference here is you manage others money I manage my money.
I put my email down earlier so if you want to contact me please do so or better yet my number is 281-259-1410 M-F.
Have someone come to your house and beat you up ……. you can’t be serious! Welcome to 6th grade!
FYI: I have several employees who have been with me in the motorcycle industry for 14 years now who come over with me from one of my other companies after 10 years there…… so I think I know how to treat my employees just fine.
Over & Out,
Jeff
Jeff
Funny you didn’t address how you justify judging others and calling someone who works for a living a “little person”. Furthermore, depending on a person’s job, many work more than 40 hours, even though that is what they get paid for and yes they worry about doing their jobs well and sometimes that does mean sleepless nights for them.
I am not sure why you need someones real name on here. I really have nothing to hide but as you can see from my email, that is what my email is thus my name on here is the same
Oh and thanks for the phone number but I could have called it after looking at the website which you could def organize a little better and add some parts to view for purchase. If you want some advise, I dont charge that much as a consultant. lol
One quick question, what happened to your other company that people left that one and followed you to a new one??? Doesn’t seem to add up.
All right everybody, this is getting way to long to read. We all should be outside riding our bikes instead of spending 40 minutes answering posts (that includes Brett Smith). Let’s do that when it’s winter when we have more time, okay?
Nobody is denying S&S as a good company. Nobody thinks (at least not me) that it will go out of business. I stand behind the numbers I posted though. The only variant I would add is that those includes S&S products but also others. But I also understand that Mr Smith has to give us his version of the story, which is fine. The bottom line is that sales are declining enough that you have to let go 30% of your workforce. Sales have to be significantly lower than expected when OEM are way down, and small motorcycle shops are closing left and right. I totally agree with you that what brings money to S&S today is the international business. This is also very similar with Custom Chrome Europe. We are all glad to hear you are selling engines in Europe, Japan, and Australia (all foreign debates apart… which are stupid by the way).
Now as far as internet policy and all that stuff… Mr Smith… the future of any business is the internet. I am sure you’re buying a lot of things on-line these days, just like the rest of us, from cars to houses, from motorcycle parts to porn DVDs. Internet companies are not all bad, not all managed from a garage in the middle of Iowa. A working website with all SEO/SEM capabilities, data base acquisition and other daily ordering systems/returns/warranties etc… requires a business plan and a lot of money. I know websites that cost more to maintain than a physical store. That being said, there are also stores that are stocking items to meet distributors annual requirements, have regular business hours just like S&S but do 80% of their business online. It does not mean they are not playing with the rules, does not mean they don’t know anything about the products, does not mean they are trying to cheat the system and discount heavily, and does not mean they work with drop-ship companies to avoid investing in inventory. If you think so and based your internet policy on these assumptions, you will continue getting bad reviews from dealers, retailers and customers.
Since you seem so “scared” about internet companies, maybe you (or your sales staff) should take the time to visit them, and get to know what they are doing before refusing to sell to them. Again, internet is the future of a lot of companies, including S&S. I wouldn’t apologize for a policy. What I would do is make sure everything is covered and well-thought. I cannot believe you would refuse to do business with a online company stocking $30,000 of products, providing expensive marketing tools on your behalf, promoting your product line and selling it mostly online. If this is the case, that’s just bad business.
As for expensive training… $1800 per person + flight + food + hotel… that’s well over $2000 per person. Again, imagine Crane Cams doing the same, Dynojet doing the same (well you have to pay for their training but you get coupons and it’s not $1800 and it’s in a cool place to go where you can have fun after you’re done). I think everybody here perfectly understands how technical your products are and as I mentioned before, it’s very important for people selling those on the phone or at a store. And if you are afraid that some stores are “fake”, why not sending someone to look at them. And if you don’t have the time, I am sure you know enough road representatives (distributors or others) that can do that for you.
We all understand that it is easier to work with 2500 strong dealers that you know will pay and are trained than 12,000 that are worthless and won’t move your products. Goes the same with retail customers. I’d rather have 1000 customers who pay on time, and come back often, than 6000 with issues.
As for the whole S&S story, CEO change and all that… gee, I wouldn’t worry about those posts. The bottom line is that you are running the show and have to deal with a tone of issues from EPA to return on investments. Everybody’s a critic, starting with myself. Your job as well as hundreds of executives in this industry are put to the test everyday. I believe that honesty and great products will survive. But I also believe that communication and confidence are as important as the rest. Again, you buy from people you like. Some might think you’re a little too strict or not a people person. Whatever has been said should not be taken personally.
We have another 2 years of hard work before it goes back to normal. S&S will be a key player in the success of the industry. Unfortunately for you, you lost the confidence of small dealers, some retailers and I am pretty sure that this will continue but that’s just the game. Distributors loose a lot of dealers ever year as well. But, I wouldn’t want to see another Cyril’s post informing us that you have to shut off a building or a program or had another “restructuration” 6 months from now. I know a few of us that would jump on this blog and cut you another one.
No need for justification on everything else in your answer. What is decided by your board or executive team is one thing. You shouldn’t have to comment on decisions that have been made, good or bad.
That being said, Jeff, jspfc… let’s take a break, grab a beer and let’s it go. We have better things to do.
So, Mr Smith, can you explain us the reason why your 12-year Event Coordinator/Manager James Simonelli has left S&S and is now working for Baker? It can’t be because he likes living in MI better than WI… Key employees like James don’t leave just for the sake of moving out of a state. Just wondering….
Dont worry RedNeck, I am already at the club poppin bottles.lol Isn’t technology a great thing.
jspfc,
I will work right down your post and answer.
1: I never called anyone who does not own their own company a “little person” what I say was “They don’t have the balls to give up their little jobs” …. I have a real problem with people who will criticize others with no knowledge of the truth. That includes you! You, or I for that matter, have any idea the internal structure of S&S, their debt service, their losses due to uncollectible receivables or a