During the seventies, there was the first oil crisis/shortage. It was during this period that muscle cars met their demise and that speed limits were first lowered.

Most notably gone were the speeds of “reasonable and prudent” where you could run as fast as the road would permit.

The second most notable speed reduction at the time was during the federal blackmail of highway funds. It was federal mandated/blackmail at this particular time that reduced interstate speeds as well as state and local highway speeds to 55 mph. Many posted speed limits were 60, 65 ,70, 75 mph. It was the bully actions by the federal government that were tolerated back then that have created nefariously strong and dictatorial agencies within our government today.

Helmets were optional to everyone. Then, as now, some riders wore them and some didn’t. Most did not wear the stupid plastic hats. I do not mention them here to start another damned helmet discussion rather, just a reference point in history for motorcyclists.

Grooved pavement became more widespread during this point in time.

I am going to touch on another point you made and that is defensive riding. I believe, although I can’t prove this with statistics or firsthand knowledge, that most riders do not practice riding. Most riders just ride and consider that to be their practice. Practice all the aspects of riding. Practice the stuff that you are good at and the stuff that needs improvement. I need to do it and so does everybody that I have ever met. It is not necessary to practice your mistakes, just practice all the things that make you a good rider on all the different surfaces that you can.

“More bike deaths are happening because bikes are dangerous and there are more on the road than ever before, add the fact we have higher speed limits and distractions and it’s a no-brainer…”

Bikes are not dangerous, their operators are dangerous. Poorly trained riders are dangerous.

Higher speed limits? Hell, they have been lowered and restricted since I started riding in the fifties. Overall, travelling cross country on a bike is much slower and much less enjoyable than years ago.

Distractions are part of the increases in motorcyclist deaths.

Don’t forget to attribute a fair share of deaths to changes in the automobile designs that have reduced crush zones and increased heights that bothare very strong contributors to maiming and deaths of motorcyclists.
Failing infrastructure of roadways and bridges, additional usage of pavement markings and pavement paints, roadway furniture, wire rope barriers (cheese graters) and the like also have contributed their fair share of death and maiming to the motorcyclists.

For the past twenty years, insurance companies have been promoting the notion that their policy holding cage drivers look out for motorcyclists. Now, the insurance companies are looking for ways to eliminate motorcycles altogether through other types of legislation. Remember, they cannot collect premiums nor get renewals if their clients are being held in jail. They also will lose further if they are assessed any further damages. The insurance companies are against motorcyclists 100 percent.

Alert, sober and defensively are very import descriptions and attributes of survivor riding.

I’m don’t know that “…courts allow leniency to the point of making a motorcyclists life/death less than a speeding ticket…”

But i do know about code enforcement, i do know the Police are more lenient regarding driving code violations (like who has the right of way at a 4-way stop…etc). When asked, they say they have other priorities.

Bottom line, no matter how many accountants, bankers, and governors take up motorcycling, riders will always the low man on the totem pole of life…..

I can’t recall ever seeing a Judge run for office on a “biker advocate” platform. At least not up here in Nor-Cal.

Lets face it, it appears that, as a species, Humans are not getting any smarter. There’s probably some corollary to the 2nd law of thermal dynamics. And our growing community seems to attract more than our share of “Beer-Morons.”

If ya don’t expect too much from Humans, you won’t be disappointed.

So just back off a-couple-a notches and enjoy life.
Just watch yourself while yer-doing it….:-)

IMHO anyway.
-nicker-

RE:
“…we are both in favor of personal responsibility…”

Spot-on! …

RE:
“… [judges] We do choose them when we vote. Therefore, we do choose to let others kill us while we are riding…”

Dude, ya flat out lost me there…???

RE:
“…picture you paint of a mother with five screaming kids is so endearing…”

That picture is simply an observation of reality.
My world view is purely pragmatic, by necessity.
She operates with neither virtue or malice, she is simply there and as a rider ya have to deal with her from that reality.
Lady Madonna she ain’t.
What she is, is a thing that can kill ya.
Hence i’ve never had a problem with loud pipes as a way to get her attention (but not as a ego enhancing device. And we all know the difference).

RE:
“…wondered why the courts don’t assess burial or hospital costs for killing or maiming a motorcyclist…”

If ya don’t blow through a green light, just because it

RE:
“…reality of this is true and stacked against the motorcyclist…”

I think this is where you and i have a diverging world view.
Reality is what it is.

As i see it, we are not all “created equal.” if we were, we would all be fucking Einsteins…!!
Basically, your Born, life is unfair and hard, then ya die.

Don’t get me wrong, life is a wonderful thing, but it plays itself out in Reality, not in Utopia.

So, le-me suggest that “…wrestl[ing] with the thought of a life for a life…” changes nothing.

RE:
“…I considered that those that kill or maim a motorcyclist in a crash should meet an equally devastating fate…”

Dude, i don’t even want to think about any Government program implementing “equally devastating fate(s)” for anyone!
(including Hillary Health Care).

IMHO you might be better off focusing on a good defensive riding strategy and improving your skills (get a dirt bike).

Remembering not blow through an intersection just because you have a green light….etc. etc. etc… will do more to keep ya from getting killed or maimed than any amount of intellectual rationalization.

RE:
“…Save your personal attacks for your appearance on the Jerry Springer show…”

-A- Don’t treat life like a popularity contest.
-B- Focus on the facts, not the delivery.

I’m not sure you and P-Dave are both “…yearning for the good old “don’t fuck with me” days…”
I do know this:
The only thing good about-em (the bad old days) we were younger then and had more hair. Suffice it to say that no murdered friends and missing acquaintances share that perspective.

“The vast majority of motorcycle-rated accidents are due to a combination of operator imparement, speeding/wreckless driving, and less than one year of operator experience; Try more than 90%, by DOT stats.”

I tried to find the information to give credulity to your 90% figure but failed. I wonder if you would help out a fellow biker and supply the sources of that exceptional statement you made.

I would love to be able to cite that info in a letter to the editor in the local rag.

Thanks

An exception to choice. We can decide who the prosecutors and judges are. We do choose them when we vote. Therefore, we do choose to let others kill us while we are riding.

The picture you paint of a mother with five screaming kids is so endearing. The reality of this is true and stacked against the motorcyclist. The reality is also true that the court does not hold her to the same level of responsibility. Should we meet her transgressions or the transgressions of others with equal lethality we are strung up by the media and the “courts”.

For a long time, I wrestled with the thought of a life for a life approach to riding. I considered that those that kill or maim a motorcyclist in a crash should meet an equally devastating fate. I have also often wondered why the courts don’t assess burial or hospital costs for killing or maiming a motorcyclist.

Notably, it does not matter what value you have to society. Once you climb on the motorcycle, your value has been discounted.

Never have been a proponent of “loud pipes”, though I have heard more than a few and try to avoid them when riding. I do enjoy the sound of them, at the various race tracks.

Never have been a proponent of operating under the influence and avoid those that ride that way. With regards to drunk driving, if you haven’t stopped some one from driving drunk, you are passively in agreement that it is okay for them to drive that way.

Not a fan of “pit maneuvers” used by police against motorcyclists. (offense weaponry)

Save your personal attacks for your appearance on the Jerry Springer show.

RE:
“… How is that?…”

Well… Hillary was some runny nose kid that got carried away with her own celebrity. And when given “the stage” started prattling on incoherently, clueless about the real world.

Seems J may have ya pegged:

“…quit trying to create some sort of “Easy Rider” fantasy…”
“…Don’t have too many beers. Lay off the pipes …”

RE:
“… please explain their fatal weapons of aggression and their fatal, offensive based training…”

Get real!
Id expect to heard that from those who pissed in their pants at the thought of getting drafted and going to boot camp.

RE:
“…Alcohol or drug impaired driving or motorcycle operation does not directly cause the crash…”

Sure… Just like it ain’t the crash that kills ya, its the sudden stop.

RE:
“…We choose to let Other Vehicle operators kill us and not be punished…”

No, the courts chooses it.
A judge isn’t going to lock up a distracted mother of five screaming kids, who runs her station wagon over a biker on her way home to fix supper.

It boils down to who is more “valuable” to society…. Her or the Biker…? I’ll give ya a clue, it ain’t the biker.

And riding with a buzz-on is still a DUI, regardless of how good it makes ya feel.
That’s reality.

-nicker-

Would non-reporting states skew the figures?

Would non-reported/documented incidents within the reporting states skew the figures?

Actually, the NHTSA figures do what they were designed to do- help account for probability and risk, based upon objective assessments of the facts of a crash- cite an example where NHTSA figures don’t do their job.

Yes, the figures do focus on two types of crashes…. because….. there are primarily two types of crashes- lol. The NHTSA doesn’t make this stuff up, or ignore facts- their stats are objective, and until you can show tangible evidence otherwise, you just saying so doesn’t mean much.

“Alcohol or drug impaired driving or motorcycle operation does not directly cause the crash. It is overwhelmingly a secondary factor in crash statistics. As we all know, it causes bad judgment and not the crash.”

Huh?

I’m sorry- I must have missed the class in law school where bad judgement is against the law- lol. Maybe it was late, and you didn’t really think this through, but a hint? Alcohol and drugs don’t cause judgement- they impare it. Ergo yes, they can directly contribute towards a crash. and people go to jail for imparement, even if no crash is involved; Do we go to jail for poor judgement, if no crime is committed? Sadly, no- lol.

Actually, the only person I see speaking in terms of generalities is you. Seizure of property as a result of committing a crime is nothing new, and has a firm basis in the law, whether or not you like it- it works. If you don’t like it, then don’t do the crime. Is this a real threat to our way of life? Hardly. There IS a difference between violation of personal rights and paranoia.

Delray Beach- I live in a similar community, and as much as I love to ride, I’m tired of the few who are intentionally disrespectful of my desire for peace and quiet. I really don’t mind loud pipes- unless the operator is intentionally being an idiot, and then yeah- disrespect me, I’ll prosecute you. In life, there are consequences for your actions, and no, you don’t have the God-given right to pull 5000 rpm on your straight-piped Shovel thru my neighborhood without retribution;

The fact is, the vast majority of communities in this country welcome bikers- they are an excellent source of revenue, and generally are no more prone to criminality than the average RV’er; I always chuckle when I see a “Welcome Bikers” sign at a hotel or restaurant- bit different from when I started riding 35 yrs ago- lol.

Sorry, but all you’ve demonstrated here ARE beliefs- regardless of how many miles you’ve ridden. Conclusions are a result of facts, not beliefs. The 70′s are over, dude- quit trying to create some sort of “Easy Rider” fantasy- hello, they sell Harley biker stuff at Disney now- LOL!

“Sanctimonious crap”? Who is really trying to be king here, my friend? You’re trying to stir up some sort of controversy, based on nothing more than a few outdated stereotypes running around in your own head.

Go for a ride. Don’t have too many beers. Lay off the pipes around the kiddies and old women.

Solo crashes and the crashes with Other Vehicles. Solo crashes most commonly happen in a curve. Crashes with Other Vehicles most commonly occur while the other vehicle is turning in front of the motorcycle.

Most often neither set of crashes are ever attributable to infrastructure nor condition of the roadway. This is an interesting point because of the many nuances and anomalies that we all inevitably encounter each and every time that we ride. Roadway condition is never satisfactorily assessed nor reported within these statistics.

Alcohol or drug impaired driving or motorcycle operation does not directly cause the crash. It is overwhelmingly a secondary factor in crash statistics. As we all know, it causes bad judgment and not the crash.

It is very interesting that speeding, reckless driving and lack of experience are brought up. These generalizations can be applied to any crash. If you run your motorcycle into anything, you did not stop in time and therefore you were speeding which has become synonymous with operating too fast for conditions. No matter the roadway condition, if you did not make the turn or did not make the required stopping distance, you are accused of being reckless. Finally, if you have never experienced each and every possibility of things happening in life, you have a lack of experience. These are all terms batted around courtrooms and most often used by those who speak in generalities by those who would be king. It is a bunch of sanctimonious crap.

We, as motorcyclists, get killed by fatal choices of our own or of others. We choose to assume that our cage operating skills will serve us on a motorcycle. We choose NOT to practice riding skills and increasing our riding skill sets. We choose to let Other Vehicle operators kill us and not be punished. We choose to have legislators that will propose seizure of motorcycles. We choose to have communities such as Delray Beach attempt to ban motorcycles.

These are not beliefs as you accuse me of. These are conclusions based upon many miles of riding.

The vast majority of motorcycle-rated accidents are due to a combination of operator imparement, speeding/wreckless driving, and less than one year of operator experience; Try more than 90%, by DOT stats.

If you can show a way to effectively legislate drunk driving, speeding/immaturity, and real-world experience, then I think you have a pretty welcome case for the insurance companies to come together in happy agreement with us and big brother.

Is lane splitting really gonna save more people than getting drunks off the road? Trucks and autos DO have priority on our highways for one very simple reason- they pay more in taxes. I want my resources deployed towards policing drunks, not cleaning up the occassional road kill that would be the inevitable fallout of lane-splitting; The first time a biker gets caught between two truckers having a bad day, you’ll see blue-hairs RUSHING towards Capital Hill to outlaw motorcycles- let alone how quickly the Tort lawyers decend upon the trucking companies!

The insurance company is not an enemy in our world. Remember, the insurance industry runs on a highly-regulated profit margin- they have to justify their numbers to state regulators and shareholders just like any of us have to in our jobs; There isn’t some “dark force” at work here, making ever-increasing profits at our expense; By their very nature, insurance companies truly don’t care- it’s just numbers, they are inert.

Are motorcyclists “hated” these days, or seen as a “dark element”? Nah- that died out awhile back, dude. Thanks to ever-increasing media coverage (and a more fiscally responsive base of ownership), motorcyclists are viewed by the general public these days as your dentist or CPA or truck driver with a mortgage to pay. Communities love the revenue and tax dollars that events bring in; Here in Florida, for example, there is hardly a weekend where a town somewhere ISN’T having some sort of community-oriented biker bash down Main Street.

However, I will agree on one point- yes, when some idiot on a Hayabusa wheelies past me at 80mph, or some squid with straight pipes on his Vulcan tries to make his bones by rattling my windows at a stoplight, then yeah, I do “hate that criminal biker”- just like I hate that fly I can’t swat all day; But I thnk Darwinism a fairly effective tool in such cases- we DO need donars.

In the end, is this a “class struggle”? Not at all- it’s a COMMUNICATION struggle- always has been, and always will be. If each side strives to seek an open exchange, solutions will occur, because ultimately, there is no “us verses them”- your insurance guy rides, your councilman rides, even Arnold still rides……

Your viewpoint in your excellent post is a PERFECT example of a harbored beliefs, verses an objective exchange of facts, and as history has shown us, fighting for beliefs is a long, hard, frustrating road…….

Now quit drinking so much, you assholes- I want my rates to start dropping……(!)

Motorcyclists are a class of roadway user. Therefore, as a class of user, motorcyclists are presented unique problems within the current regulations and laws that disregard suitability of roadway for operation of motorcycles upon them while being afforded equal protection under the law. Through passive or active disregard by the various government agencies, legislators and courts, the motorcyclist, as a class of roadway user, is patently discriminated against.

Further complication, discrimination and prejudice confronts the motorcyclist with laws of protectionism. Many states that have mandatory helmet laws reference FMVSS 218 as a standard. Unfortunately, the Government cannot make any objective standards for helmets without taking on liability, and since they [the government] are expressly forbidden from taking on any liability, they can never make an objective standard for helmet. Without an objective standard it all becomes ad hoc and arbitrary; ad hoc and arbitrary is the foundation of vague law; vague law is unconstitutional.

Therefore, the motorcyclist, as a class of roadway user, has, in fact, many struggles disguised in any number of forms.

The latest of these struggles is the current move by government to seize motorcycles based upon a subjective report of “stunt” riding. In my humble opinion, staying alive on a motorcycle on a daily basis is a “stunt” and I will be damned if they are going to seize my property for staying alive.

Mike, had you started and stopped at:
“… I believe the accident rate could be cut in half if American drivers had a better attitude about driving. But that would mean that people would have to be educated and willing to assume more personal responsibility…” You would have my full agreement.

But:
“… I would contend it is a class struggle disguised …”
“…government.., police and prison systems… promoted killing…”

Dude, that’s about as lame as Hillary Clinto’s Welsley commencement speech.

-nicker-

The roads are far too dangerous and add to that problem people who recently just starting riding, the rubs on the new heavy bikes and your everyday folks on cell phones and latte highs. Makes me dream that once a year everyone should have to take driving classes to renew their license, to prove they can actually drive. That would be a dream come true!