stuff like “…there is a need to examine health-care, because the current system is not as good as it should be…”

And

“…Businesses and individuals should not be paying into a system …”

point out the huge difference in our respective positions.

Social engineering has turned the process of acquiring medical services and commodities from a “marketing exercise” into a “system.”

Anyway, bringing the topic back to HD and their marketability:
RE: “… American businesses can begin to be more competitive with changes…”

Although i didn’t seek out Motorcycle stuff, casual observation indicated that the US-V-twin interest seems to have dropped off some. I only noticed about 10 to 15 HDs as i was goin about in Italy, Spain, France, & Germany).

-nicker-

The other misconception or conclusion that nicker jumped to was that I suggested adopting a European or Canadian model by merely suggesting a form of a national healthcare system. Wrong ‘em boyo, again.

My point has been: there is a need to examine healthcare, because the current system is not as good as it should be. This does not imply a socialistic approach and does not assume an exact copy of European or Canadian healthcare models. There are other innovative ways to improve just about anything, including healthcare. Naysayers that jump to conclusions (read Nicker’s first post in this thread) impede improvement.

Businesses and individuals should not be paying into a system as much as we are and STILL have the level of costs under the current healthcare approach. I would hope there is some ounce of agreement in that notion. If there is, then American businesses can begin to be more competitive with changes. What those changes entail, I don’t know…but the topic should be high on our lists to expect the elected officials to bust their ass over. The costs in terms of not only dollars but lack of competitiveness is too huge to not change the status quo.

looks to You – I’m not surprised.

RE: “…Harley in particular has built their business on the retro, “rebel” mystique …”

Spot on…!

Moreover, the entire cruiser (HD or other) industry has hitched it’s wagon to that market. I’m surprised it’s lasted as long as it has. And undoubtedly it will continue, but at some lower volume.

Looks to me like Kollian’s a lost cause.

I’m going to Europe tomorrow for three weeks to help remind myself why we left.

I doubt HD (or any other industry, for that matter) could improve their business model based on a Government Program that…..

-1- Requires a 45 to 60 cent/pack additional cigarette tax.

-2- And is estimated to become $32-trillion dollar unfunded mandate on Medicare. (per the non-partisan Concord Coalition).

…..Regardless of product.

See ya in a few weeks.

-nicker-

I think there is one important point that has been overlooked here. A motorcycle – no matter what brand/style/capacity – is by and large a discretionary purchase. Who among us at some time hasn’t had to delay buying a new bike because there has been a more pressing thing we’ve had to pay for? Or who hasn’t had to sell the bike to raise the deposit for a house or pay something else or whatever? So motorcycle sales started to decline in 2005? Funny thing…that’s about when interest rates were rising and property values were falling. So is the motorcycle industry actually in decline, or is it that the industry, like a lot of other discretionary-spend products, is going through the same economic downturn cycle? As the first President Clinton famously said.. “It’s the economy, stupid”. As for whether or not women can save the motorcycle industry…no. But more power to them! The more ladies we see on bikes the better!!

My prediction – when household disposable income rises, so will motorcycle sales.

Nicker – you should consider not speaking in general terms. It does nothing for a credible argument. Your answer to reducing healthcare was: remove illegals. There are thousands more American citizens walking into ER roooms all over the country without insurance. There are thousands more American girls giving birth without insurance….

Whatever the medical situation, there are American citizens costing other insured American citizens & businesses money under the current system. The notion I suggested a long time ago, before you accused me of being a socialist, was to examine a national plan that, in the end, could be cheaper to operate for individuals and businesses, while providing coverage to more people. Nothing about socialism, but a pragmatic business examination. Nothing about big government.

Your best/worst example of flimsy, generalized bullshit: claiming single parenthood is purely a result of some “moral demise” ushered in by “Progressives” . Meanwhile, self-proclaimed “higher morality” conservatives are making headlines in an unfavorable light. You’ll have to turn off Fox News to know about them.

RE: “…What source do you have that supports your claim that illegals…”
My brother-in-law is a Hospital administrator in California. He has worked in several hospitals in the Northern California Central Valley. The emergency rooms are simply full of illegals. His main problem, at every place he has worked, is containing those costs.
And the free clinics in our area are also full to capacity with illegal workers. I could tell you horror stories about that but this isn’t the focus of the blog.

RE: “…that you seem to have no problem with paying into a defense budget in the same manner that some national health care programs could be funded, and when someone suggests looking into the idea, you start into drivel about socialism…”
No….. the “drivel about socialism” was in direct response to your allusions to the tired old Progressive “share the wealth” prattle. Perhaps your too young to realize that, in which case you need to do some reading.
Yes…. I have no problem at all funding what is Wold War III. Iraq is only one battle in that war. We’ve been in WW-III since the 1980’s.

RE: “…if healthcare is a human right… Ask the single mom, who slips and falls…”
No…. the contemporary social anomaly of “Single Mothers” is a direct result of the disintegration of the Family unit, ushered in by the 1960’s. Thank your Progressive friends (LBJ’s Great Society….etc.).
Here in California we had a safety net for indigent medical cases. We had a great County Hospital system. And many a Biker, Mother, and Poor Student used it. It wasn’t fun to sit in the waiting room with a bunch of other folks, but if you had no money that’s what you had to do. It might be instructive to you to learn that

The County General System’s demise was partly instigated by the Progressives who demanded that those who couldn’t pay should have the same healthcare “access experience” as those who could afford to pay (-BTW- that’s called redistribution of wealth financial perspective…”

RE: “…Then ask yourself those questions in light of our nation supposedly being a “leader” from a from a financial perspective…”

Dude, the only question I’m asking myself right now is what are you taking about?.

-nicker-

What source do you have that supports your claim that illegals make up the majority of ER cases? Are illegals making up the majority of births to mothers without insurance?

That is your most flimsy comment in this thread.

My comment referring to defense budgets was intended to suggest that you seem to have no problem with paying into a defense budget in the same manner that some national health care programs could be funded, and when someone suggests looking into the idea, you start into drivel about socialism.

Either approach to healthcare (the existing model or a version of a national healthcare model) entails the majority (you, me, employers, etc.) paying for other people to have healthcare. Would a national healthcare system better manage those hidden costs, while offering better coverage to more people? That is what we should be open-minded to analyze, instead of tagging it as “socialism” right out of the gate.

You stated health care is not a right. No, it is not listed in the Bill of Rights, but ask many medical professionals if healthcare is a human right. Ask the single mother raising sick kids without insurance if healthcare is a human right. Ask the single mom, who slips and falls at work, rupturing discs in her back resulting in chronic back pain, if healthcare isn’t a human right.

Then ask yourself those questions in light of our nation supposedly being a “leader” from a financial perspective.

———

HD would do well with additional models in addition to the quality fit and finish of their existing catalog.

If HD needs to improve their profitability, than expanding their market share is one avenue. And opening up the demographic would be a strategy. Could give “sissy bar” a whole new meaning.

But seriously, The “Motor maids” were a HD force way before this. And they certainly didn’t have the limitations posed by “Dykes-on-Bikes.”

I’m thinking that trying to capitalize on the “Wild One” stereotype poses the same demographic limitation.

Judging by how well the Baggers are going over (my neighbor just dumped is Honda Valkyrie for a Classic) i’d say HD needs to concentrate on the basics: Quality, Fit & Finish.

The market is always there for good value (regardless of healthcare ….:-).

IMHO, anyway.

-nicker-

However, in “today’s world” that model appears to be in disfavor as private and public employers are buckling under these “defined benefit” liabilities. So, now we have LLPs taking over and the first “Liability” their looking to “Limit” is stuff like healthcare.

So, it looks to me like the 1955 model is more than just interesting from a “historical perspective.”
I’m thinking that if we reverted back to the old economic model, the market forces would drive healthcare down…..

RE: “…why don’t you think the same about defense…”
Well, primarily because “healthcare/pharmaceutical” didn’t bomb the barracks in Lebanon; Didn’t attack our embassies in Africa; Didn’t attack the USS Cole….etc. etc. And they didn’t fly aircraft into the World Trade Center….

RE: “…why are we taxed so much for defense purposes…”

As I recall, our Defense figures, when compared to percentage of GDP are not out of proportion to the industrialized world.

So, it looks to me like the 1955 model is more than just interesting from a “historical perspective.”
I’m thinking that if we reverted back to the old economic model, the market forces would drive healthcare down…..
RE: “…, you choose to read what you want and miss the point…”
Dude, what have I missed about your “point”……????
RE: “ … But who introduced anything about socialism except your paranoid mindset? Progressives defend Communism ? Ha! That is laughable.

Ya, i suppose those who think of “history” as only good for “…going back to that time…,” as an anecdote with no relevance to “today’s world,” would thinks i’m paranoid about Socialism and Communism. Try doing some more reading.

RE: “…Sounds like the have-nots are handing you a back-handed socialist model without you even knowing it, while you smugly rant about someone else wanting socialism & communism. Who pays for the thousands of emergency cases on a daily basis that do not have insurance? Who pays for the thousands of babies born to mothers without insurance?…”

The “have-nots …. Thousands of emergency [room] cases…” are primarily illegals. Take them out of the country and you would have a totally different economic equation. How do you figure them as a “backhanded model” …..? They look like a “direct” model to me….

going back to that time is good for history, but does that model stand a chance into today’s world?

Nicker: “So, your position is that Socialism doesn’t work there because they don’t have enough people… Sounds like your point is Socialism doesn’t Scale…?

That’s the same lame excuse Progressives come up with trying to defend Communism.”

Yes, to some degree, socialism doesn’t scale with a limited population concerning topics where the costs have risen disproportionately, such as healthcare/pharmaceutical costs. How is the US able to formulate a defense budget without the number of people in the country? b-t-w, why don’t you think the same about defense….why are we taxed so much for defense purposes? Isn’t that a socialistic approach? Why don’t you sign-up for a “personal defense plan” and contribute $$ accordingly? But who introduced anything about socialism except your paranoid mindset? Progressives defend Communism ? Ha! That is laughable. More laughable, in fact, than assuming environmentalists are anti-business.

Nicker: “However, when you start hollering about what will cost you “…more than it should while very few get rich…” your prattling standard Marx and Engel class envy (have vs have-nots).

After 60 some odd years experience kicking around this world. i’m inclined to believe that Humans in general are not wired to accept “wealth distribution” ….regardless how you flavor it”.

At 60 some years, you choose to read what you want and miss the point that has been made more than once already….You, Jane Doe, XYZ Co., etc. are paying more than you should for healthcare with the current system. Furthermore, the amount of money you are paying is, to some degree, is paying for others who don’t have healthcare. Sounds like the have-nots are handing you a back-handed socialist model without you even knowing it, while you smugly rant about someone else wanting socialism & communism. Who pays for the thousands of emergency cases on a daily basis that do not have insurance? Who pays for the thousands of babies born to mothers without insurance?

You do.

My views above have nothing to do with socialism or communism. More of a shrewd business look at the current mess than wanting a leach-filled socialist society. I fully understand the slippery slope socialism & communism have on the human psyche, both as an individual & society at large. So, think again before you make those accusations.

The current system has rising costs that have superceded the 50′s paradgim you mentioned above. My stance does not equate to “wealth distribution” at all – More generalized bunk on your part that fails to see you are paying more than you should be for healthcare.

RE:
“…How much will this “service” cost under a model without insurance?…”

Go back to 1955, people were able to run a family of 4 without health care. The family doctor came to the house. People handled healthcare costs out of pocket. The bigger bills we arranged via a payment plan with the “service provider” based on the free market.

RE:
“… A distinct advantage the US has over the smaller European nations is that we have a more populous nation…”

So, your position is that Socialism doesn’t work there because they don’t have enough people… Sounds like your point is Socialism doesn’t Scale…?

That’s the same lame excuse Progressives come up with trying to defend Communism.

RE:
“…Crunch the numbers with the right plan in place and the health care can be improved while maintaining the “standard of living”. …”

OK, i’m listening, start crunching. Let’s see what you come up with.

As i understand it, Hillary’s latest proposal (not her failed 1993 attempt)is based on 45 to 60 cent/pack cigarette tax. The non-partisan Concord Coalition estimated it will become $32-trilion dollar unfunded mandate on Medicare.

RE:
“…’Buy American’ …. It even hints at socialism…”

I’m ot sure what that means, it makes no sense (to me anyway)…?
May be someone else can step in and bail you out.

RE:
“…Who said anything about a “school system” and disparaging competition …”

Well, i was simply agreeing with Goldiron’s perspective and suggesting a cause & effect. In the aggregate, the cause is creeping Socialism, exactly what is happening in those “smaller European nations”.

However, when you start hollering about what will cost you “…more than it should while very few get rich…” your prattling standard Marx and Engel class envy (have vs have-nots).

After 60 some odd years experience kicking around this world. i’m inclined to believe that Humans in general are not wired to accept “wealth distribution” ….regardless how you flavor it.

As a European by birth and also a former Australian, (not to mention relatives still living behind what was the “Iron Curtain”) i’ve got lots of experience with both Socialism and Communism.

Dude, these strategies are a dead end. Hoping for a massive influx of women buyers has a better chance of saving HD than national heathcare.

-IMHO, nicker-

How much will this “service” cost under a model without insurance?

Nicker: “A school system that disparages competition and has been promoting socialism for 50 years isn’t what industry or this country needs.”

Who said anything about a “school system” and disparaging competition as it relates to the moto industry or the health care industry?

Nicker: “Any comparison to “…other countries’ plans…” should include a comprehensive “cost/performance” analysis. Look at their overall economy and standard of living”

True, it should include this type of analysis. A distinct advantage the US has over the smaller European nations is that we have a more populous nation. Crunch the numbers with the right plan in place and the health care can be improved while maintaining the “standard of living”. Simply stated, I know, but this is the start of huge potential for improvement.

Nicker: “Healthcare isn’t a right”.

Under the current system, the millions of people without healthcare are costing YOU & American companies more than you realize. Would a different plan that leverages health care to all citizens reduce the current cost to those of us that do have healtcare? We have to look close to find out, ’cause the existing system is spinning our wheels.

You came out with comments about socialism because I suggested a universal healthcare. This is bunk. I’m not suggesting people get something for nothing and that we turn our competitive nature into Govt.-suckling, hand-holding, outstretched open-handed drones.
I don’t want the current system to cost me more than it should while very few get rich…all the while the driver to this cost are those that do not have any coverage.

——-
Scott: “It is time that the American consumer woke up and got their head out of their ass.”

The American companies need to do this too…There is a big problem with “Buy American” for the sole purpose of buying American. It even hints at socialism. You buy the best product on the market for the best price, not because it is American. Competition, right?

The auto industry in the 80s is an example of why you shouldn’t “buy American” for the sole purpose of buying American. Same goes for the SUV craze in the late 90s and early 2000s. Ford and GM were irresponsible for pumping out SUVs without any other investment in alternatives…and they’re hurting because of this lack of vision.

Honestly, will women save the indusrty? Maybe! Will they save Harley? NO!! Take an objective look at what is available. The Asian producers have a better grasp on the pulse of the American market than the bloated near death American companies. Why would I pay $8,000 for a sportie when i can get a entry level bike from Brand X for $5,000 that fits the needs of a beginner rider. The Honda Shadow sits lower from the factory than the Sportster Hugger model does. It will fit the shorter female rider right out of the box. It pains me to say this. I have owned and ridden Harley’s for years. I am as loyal as they come to Buy American. When the so called American companies fail to respond to the current needs of a market they deserve to be put out of business. In my book the consumer rules the market not the producer. It is time that the American consumer woke up and got their head out of their ass. Every dollar that we spend with a company that doesn’t respond to our needs is a vote for their continued fat pompous asses to cram their views down our throats. But then again how many people think buying chrome off the shelf makes their bike, Car, Truck…. A custom? welcome to the land of Sheeple BAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

I guess my reply to Killian’s
“…right (or right-leaning) always cries “socialist”…” didn’t make the cut…….. Interesting.

Anyway…..
I’d say Goldiron has his finger on it.

“…Most of the leading overhead costs that plague US based companies evolve from a poor work ethic…” (the rest government meddling).

Said another way,…. plagued by a workforce (and by extension a society) that is increasingly focused on entitlements.

Perhaps the reason that Killian feels “… the current system is not working…” is because (as i stated in my missing post) Healthcare isn’t a right, it’s a good or service just like any other.

Perhaps the solution to reducing healthcare costs is to eliminate government mandates, reduce taxes on industry and repeal the overbearing regulations. Basically, less government and no more mandatory insurance coverage.

The MC industry (like any other) is based on competition. A school system that disparages competition and has been promoting socialism for 50 years isn’t what industry or this country needs.

Any comparison to “…other countries’ plans…” should include a comprehensive “cost/performance” analysis. Look at their overall economy and standard of living. Can the average guy in these countries afford to own a couple of HDs…?

I’m just a retired IT guy with a shop full of machine-tools and motorcycles. My cousin in Germany is an Astor Physicist who can barley afford his own home and one car.

-nicker-

To entice all of the scooter riders in Europe to get on a bike.

This will be interesting to watch in terms of attracting new riders and/or re-introducing riders that have not ridden for awhile or are getting older. This bike may not be styled for N.Americans falling into those classifications, but the automatic transmission could be applied to other models.

My father decided to learn to ride again after 50 years. He’s 71. He’s doing well with it, but he definitely thinks an automatic would be helpful for him and many other riders.

Step out of your skills as a rider for a moment and put yourself in the demographic that could help turnaround the declining moto sales. The newbies (male or female) or the aging rider….Consider the anxiety level of learning to master the gearbox with today’s drivers. It’s not the same 15, 20, & 50 years ago.

The current health care system results in a few (reltively speaking) getting really rich; and a lot of people (without insurance) costing everyone in between more than is acceptable. This is not progress.

I didn’t ask what was the only or top overhead cost that could be addressed. The topic you raise definitely needs resolved. One of the leading (italicized) overhead costs that needs to be addressed is health care. Again, the current system is not working – companies & employees spend too much money for what appears to be spinning our wheels. We’re not getting anywhere considering the amount of money invested, especially when you compare other countries’ plans.

Nicker also asked “who is going to pay for such a “socialist uptopia?” The thousands (perhaps millions) without insurance undoubtedly cost the rest of us boat loads of cash….so you’re already living that “uptopia”….in a back-handed way.

Although you have not asked me the questions “why are companies STILL sending jobs overseas? What is one of the leading overhead costs in a companies’ product/service that, if reduced, could make ‘Made In America’ more competitive?”, I would like to respond.

Most of the leading overhead costs that plague US based companies evolve from a poor work ethic and even poorer understanding of what makes their product competitive in the marketplace. This ethic and lack of understanding has added a tremendous burden to the ‘cost of’ and ‘pricing of’ services and products.

‘Made in America’ used to mean something special about a product. American Technology, at one time, was a bragging right. Legislators that have created laws making it advantageous for companies to ‘globalize’ operations have been bought through lobbying efforts and contributions to their enrichment and power.

Personal accountability and responsibility for actions is talked about and yet seldom seen. Often times it is pointed out that ‘others’ need it but rarely addressed on a personal level.

The entertainment industry has provided us with an amorality in this area that has been embraced by the news media. We are talking about a work ethic and morality that has vacated our lives and has been pushed overseas. We collectively have dropped the ball on this one and we no longer stand up for what is ours. Rather we bitch and moan about what we do not have. No longer do we decide just to make it or do it….we outsource it.